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Hunterson7's avatar

The reasoning of the analysis offered on this essay is circular.

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

In what way?

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RichinPhoenix's avatar

There are things I really like about Trump, even as a Democrat. Stopping the border lunacy. Stopping the trans lunacy. And if Trump decided he didn’t want to continue aid to Ukraine for various reasons, I wouldn’t agree, but I acknowledge there are valid arguments. But turning towards Russia and against our allies? This is nuts. This will risk the entire post World War II order that my family members fought for (one in the Merchant Marine in the Atlantic convoys). Ultimately, this together with tariffs against our friends, will lead to the end of the dollar as the reserve currency, the end of purchasing of trillions of dollars of our bonds by our allies as they curry favor with China and other regimes, higher rates, a more chaotic world, more inflation, and a dramatic decline in our standard of living similar to what happened to the United Kingdom when the pound was replaced by the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.

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Eugine Nier's avatar

> It’s one of the ironies of our time that hatred of America, once the preserve of the radical Left, has now been embraced by the lumpen-Right.

Many of the lumpen-Right are ex-leftists Millennials. Taught by the radical left back in the 00's that the biggest moral imperative was to "Stop Bush's Wars" they were disillusions when Obama did not in fact stop the wars. They thus wondered in the wilder-lands of the internet during Obama's term before coalescing around Donald Trump.

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Francis Turner's avatar

Like Marc Thiessen (https://archive.is/jgurj ) I feel like Zelenskyy screwed the pooch on this and yes it really didn't help Zelenskyy's case that he was used as a campaign prop by Commie La Whoreish.

I agree with you that Trump is influenced by (very misguided) pro-Putin voices but I think he is genuinely trying to get the war to stop. You can argue (I have argued) that Ukraine should be given a chance to actually finish Russia but I can see why Trump doesn't want that

I wrote quite a lot more here - https://ombreolivier.substack.com/p/clash-of-worldview?r=7yrqz

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Dave's avatar

Allowing Europe to have free healthcare and other social benefits denied to our citizens because we provide their defense is beyond stupid and is ending no matter what anyone thinks.

Paying for the defense of Europe. Here’s the math. EU’s GDP is $19T. Russia’s is $2T. If the EU spent 3% of GDP on defense that would total $570B. If Russia tried to match that effort it would take 28% of their output. Obviously impossible. Europe can easily defend itself.

The assurance that Jelensky is seeking is that we will send in our troops if Putin breaches the agreement. No American president including Trump and Biden would or could give him that assurance because it’s a de facto NATO membership. People don’t seem to understand what is being negotiated. We have no idea if Putin will stick to any agreement he makes (and he is not to be trusted) so we can’t commit to an armed response by our troops due to his perfidy. We can only say that if it does happen we will continue to supply weapons and ammunition to Ukraine.

It is a very difficult time for our nation where most now have no experience of military service and no desire that their children or grandchildren ever have that experience and yet are forced to struggle with our relationship to an ongoing European war. I have nothing but contempt for those who urge us to support a war with no intention to actually ever have to suffer from the consequences of their urging.

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Dee's avatar

It’s funny because all my European colleagues seemed to understand perfectly what another Trump presidency would mean for them. One friend joked he’d better start learning Russian. Another person said she thought it would be difficult short term but in the long run it would be better for them to learn to stand on their own against Russia. The Europeans all understood it

meant they’d be paying for their own defense. I don’t think that was something most Americans understood going into voting.

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

What’s beyond stupid is this claim that the US provides Europe’s defense. It wasn’t true during the Cold War and it isn’t true now. For instance, during the last decade of the Cold War, the mobilized strength of the West German Bundeswehr was eighteen divisions: six armored, ten mechanized infantry, one mountain infantry, one airborne. Mobilized personnel strength was 1,065,000.

It’s true of course that after the Cold War ended, the European NATO nations downsized their militaries, but so did the US. During the Cold War, US Army Europe had combat units amounting to six divisions stationed in West Germany. Today, counting everything, the total is about a division and a half.

You and Trump don’t know what you’re talking about.

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Francis Turner's avatar

Ah no. Much of Eastern Europe has serious military. The UK has a mostly serious one, as does France. Pretty much no one else does. The Western Europeans downsized their armed forces to pathetically small in the 1990s and 2000s

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Dave's avatar

Thomas: Well that’s wonderful. Since Europe never relied on the US then there is no problem if we abandon their lazy asses to their fate. You win the internet’s stupid comment of the day award.

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Stupidity compounded. Of course the European NATO Allie’s relied on the US during the Cold War. American participation in the alliance was what made it an effective deterrent. But you’re so determined to see Putin win his war of aggression that you just have to play dumb. That’s why in in my article I used the term lumpen-Right to describe people like you.

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Warbling J Turpitude's avatar

with this many rhetorical devices inflaming his script, TMG reveals himself at last to be Claire Berlinski's bitch! 😃

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Well, I wrote nothing in the present article that I haven’t written many times before:

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Warbling J Turpitude's avatar

the likes of "natcon jihad" would seem a departure from your normal controlled flight? Where might one find the official "Natcon" charter, or at least its 'manifesto'?

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Y.L.'s avatar
Mar 3Edited

I think that is one of the worst typos I have seen!! In the subtitle: Isn't it supposed to be:

Trump and the NATCONS leaven mendacity with magical thinking?

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Like it never even happened…

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Y.L.'s avatar

nice!

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Kim's avatar

Bravo!!

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Thank you.

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John Powell's avatar

A million dead bodies already and you sanctimoniously want to prolong the conflict at any cost. Even at the risk of WW3? No thanks. War is wrong

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Eugine Nier's avatar

> War is wrong

Oh, a pacifist idiot.

Isn't it funny who pacifism always starts with "war is bad because people die" and ends with "it was their own fault for getting invaded".

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R Hodsdon's avatar

When a large, powerful country invades a smaller, weaker neighbor, what is at stake is not just a matter of real estate. The principle that all modern states are obligated to accept is respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all states.

It is in this sense that Ukraine's fight is not just a fight to protect Ukrainian land and its people, but to show Putin and other states with strongman rulers that transgressions such as this will have severe consequences.

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John Powell's avatar

Simply not true. Historically Donbas and Crimea are indigenous Russian speaking. In fact while Ukrainian is the official language a sufficient population speak Russian.

The peace treaty was agreed upon but not signed by Zelinsky at the behest of Johnson and Biden. Indigenous Russian territory and a NATO free zone the principal factors. Which will no doubt become the basis of a peace agreement.

Instead The fact thus remains that a proxy war ensued. 4 million Ukrainians left the country. Almost a million are dead in this conflict.

Dead bodies.

Resolution ? The expressed goal of the NATO countries as expressed by Canadian minister Joly and echoed by the west was “a regime change in Russia”

NO diplomatic attempts for peace.

How many bodies will be sufficient for you to call for peace? TWO MILLION CORPSES?

Horrifying. And none of you keyboard warriors are off to fight this war. Instead you pontificate and leave Ukrainians to be sacrificed daily to suit your rhetoric

:” whatever it takes “.

It is beyond reason.

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R Hodsdon's avatar

On re-reading my comments I have to agree that I come across as patronizing (and possibly even “sanctimonious “ as John has said). However I make no claim to be a fortune teller, just a reader of news and analysis. My comments are my personal opinions, nothing more.

Like John (and all of us here, I imagine) I hope that this war will conclude with a just and lasting peace as soon as possible. I am not holding my breath, however.

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R Hodsdon's avatar

In response to my post, John Powell wrote: "Simply not true....NO diplomatic attempts for peace....And none of you keyboard warriors are off to fight this war. Instead you pontificate and leave Ukrainians to be sacrificed daily to suit your rhetoric."

Well, John, here we are at our keyboards once again, arguing over what facts are relevant and what is the purpose of UKRAINE'S powerful response to Russia's INVASION. And meanwhile, Ukrainians and Russians are dying as you pointed out.

I take issue with your implication that the prolongation of the war is somehow the fault of Americans or NATO support for UKRAINIAN efforts to remain free and independent in the face of RUSSIAN AGGRESSION. Dammitall, John, this is the cause we have stood for ever since America entered WWII. WTF???

As hard as it is for us (mostly) monoglot Americans to comprehend, being multi-lingual does not obviate one's nationality. The fact that many UKRAINIANS speak Russian fluently, or even as their first language (as in the case of President Zelenskyy himself) is not a reason to believe that they are 'cryto-Russians' (and even if they were culturally and genetically Russian, that they want to live in Putin's morally impoverished kleptocracy).

The whole conflict boils down to one issue: Putin believes UKRAINE is not a state, UKRAINIANS are not a nation, UKRAINIAN territory has historically been fought over and occupied by various states (Lithuanian Grand Duchy, Poland, Austria-Hungary, as well as Tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union, and therefore previous Russian commitments to respect its borders are null and void.

(I have intentionally capitalized key words for emphasis, not to indicate 'yelling')

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R Hodsdon's avatar

(Addendum) John, I really dislike sounding sanctimonious, but I have to wonder whether you can see a resemblance to another piece of fairly recent European history. Do you realize that by supporting a 'peace plan' that carves up Ukraine you are advocating a 'peace at any price' just as Neville Chamberlain tried when he signed an agreement to trade the predominantly German-speaking part of Czechoslovakia (Sudetenland) in exchange for Hitler's promise not to make any additional territorial demands.

You undoubtedly know how well that worked out.

Most informed commentators assert that Putin will not be satisfied until he has reasserted Russian control over ALL the former Soviet territories. Giving in to Russian demands will result only in a pause of hostilities; it will not prevent the war from being re-started at a later date.

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John Powell's avatar

Canada was BITD “ The peacemaker”. Troops helping keep the peace . Not anymore. Instead we have a lunatic prime minister and the aforementioned foreign minister Joly to this day saying “ whatever it takes “. But like the UK and the rest of these pathetic miserable crablice NATO politicians they have NOTHING to give.

PEACE. President Trump is a voice of peace in a wilderness of absurdity.

.

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R Hodsdon's avatar

John, you re deluding yourself if you believe that Trump is interested in a lasting peace for the borderlands of Russia. Trump is interested in cutting a deal that is favorable to Russia. This would give him a double win: he can proclaim he is a great peace-maker and claim some sort of commercial payback from Putin.

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John Powell's avatar

Read what you wrote. That’s absurd. We need peace. And you smart people are dancing on the graves of more dead than in Stalingrad from the safety of their warm North American homes saying “ whatever it takes “ and “ change the Russian regime “.

What if I said ban democrats one party no elections? What if I said “ we need a regime change in Canada” and sent billions of dollars to achieve that?

You stand on dead bodies. Brave Ukrainians and Russians.

Call me a pacifist ?

Sign up and go fight in Ukraine.

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R Hodsdon's avatar

I don't really follow what you said about elections or regime change in Canada, John, but it's clear that you and I have reached that "fork in the road" that ol' Elon likes to talk about. So you go your way, I'll go mine. Believe whatever you like; I believe I am being realistic, and reality can be brutal.

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Who’s we? You and V. Putin?

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Well, despite all the big talk, Trump hasn’t delivered peace, has he? In fact, he’s done the opposite because now the war will go on.

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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

There is no risk of WW III. That’s just b.s. Anyhow, you should take your complaint to V. Putin, who could stop the war he started by withdrawing his forces from Ukraine, the country he invaded.

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Eugine Nier's avatar

There is. Trump's bullheadedness has greatly increased it.

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Mar 3
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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

Exactly, and that's why Trump's big talk about brokering a peace deal went up in smoke—as I expected. "You can trust V. Putin" isn't an argument that Ukraine was ever likely to accept. And on the other hand, he had no leverage over Zelensky, having made it clear that he intended to pull the plug on aid to Ukraine no matter what. So much for ther art of the deal.

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Mar 3
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Thomas M Gregg's avatar

No longer. The Trump Administration has effectively aligned itself with Russia. Trump’s kicking Ukraine to the curb, and he can’t threaten Zelenski with what he intends to do anyway.

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Mar 3
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R Hodsdon's avatar

Impossible. Zelenskyy would lose all credibility with Ukrainians, who are the ones fighting and dying for their country. (Russians are suffering as well, of course, but their sacrifices are made for Putin's ego, not for the sake of Russia per se).

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